188体育

Cathy Newman, presenter: New efforts to deal with one of the most horrific consequences of that conflict 鈥� mass sexual violence against women. Britain is about to dispatch a team of doctors, detectives and other experts to the Syrian region to investigate allegations that rape is being used repeatedly and deliberately as a weapon of war.

The brutality in Syria has, according to the United Nations, reached 鈥渁ppalling heights鈥�. The opposition now fears the uprising has claimed more than 40,000 lives, but as well as the lives lost, there are many thousands of lives ruined too 鈥� not by bombs or bullets, but by another weapon of war: rape. After meeting his team of experts, the Foreign Secretary told this programme that within weeks the Government will be taking the unprecedented step of deploying doctors, investigators, psychologists and lawyers to the Syrian region to gather evidence to bring the perpetrators of rape to justice, evidence likely to be gathered too in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Last week, the M23 rebels marched on the city of Goma. Both sides are accused of appalling abuses. Rape has become a fact of life here for 15 years now. This woman was raped in 2002 by the Hutu militia. A decade on, she still fears her attackers will return, so her identity has been concealed.

Unnamed woman, victim of military rape [translated]: I don鈥檛 know those people, and I don鈥檛 know where they are now, and I couldn鈥檛 follow up, because if I tried to investigate, those people would come back and they鈥檇 kill me.

Cathy Newman: It鈥檚 thought 12% of women in the Congo have been raped at least once, and the figures elsewhere in the world are just as shocking. Up to 50,000 women were raped during the Bosnian conflict in the 1990s; 64,000 women and girls were sexually assaulted in Sierra Leone between 1992 and 2002, and 400,000 were raped during the hundred-day genocide in Rwanda in 1994. Justice for the victims remains elusive, though 鈥� only 30 men have been convicted of rape committed during the Bosnian War, and a sense of outrage about that was what persuaded Angelina Jolie, the actress turned UN envoy, to make a film about the Bosnian rape camps, In The Land of Blood and Honey. The Foreign Secretary happened to see it, and says today it inspired him to launch a global campaign to tackle war zone rape, and forge an alliance with one of Hollywood鈥檚 biggest stars.

Well, William Hague and Angelina Jolie plan to join the experts gathering evidence in the field next year, and earlier I went to speak to both the Foreign Secretary and the Hollywood star at Mr Hague鈥檚 official country residence in Chevening in Kent. I began by asking the Foreign Secretary about the deployment to the Syrian region.

William Hague (Foreign Secretary): Well, one of the things we will be doing is deploying the team that we鈥檝e now assembled. We鈥檝e assembled a team of 70 doctors, lawyers, forensic experts, psychologists who can be deployed in the field; in the case of Syria, helping Syrian refugees 鈥� they鈥檙e going to be training local health professionals to gather the medical evidence, to get the forensic evidence and documentation that can be used in prosecutions in the future. So this is a practical example of what we can do, and we鈥檒l be having other deployments over the coming year.

Cathy Newman: Well, you鈥檝e been to many war zones. Do you think it鈥檚 realistic, in a war zone, in a war situation, to deploy a team in this way and actually gather evidence?

Angelina Jolie (Special Envoy, United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees): Absolutely. I think it鈥檚鈥� I think it must be done. I think it鈥檚 a鈥� it鈥� you know, I work a lot with refugees, people who are internally displaced, people who have just fled from conflict. I was in the Syria conflict particularly recently, on four different borders, and you meet the people the moment they cross 鈥� and they immediately want to start talking. They want to know what鈥檚 happening to their future, they want to participate. They want to put on record what鈥檚 going on in the country; they want things not to be missed, and they want to know that one day, they鈥檒l be able to go home, and there will be accountability. And so it matters to them emotionally, and it matters to the future of their country on a legal level that they will be able to find some justice and impunity, move forward, and have their basic human rights protected.

Cathy Newman: Talking about where this is happening now, it鈥檚 really a, kind of, cruel coincidence of timing, isn鈥檛 it, that the trouble in the Congo has, sort of, flared up, at just the moment you鈥檙e really stepping up this campaign. Is there a sense, do you think, that the M23 rebels, when they marched on Goma, that the UN really stood by and failed in its duty to protect those civilians 鈥� some of whom were being raped?

Angelina Jolie: It鈥檚 a very, very complex situation, and I know in particular I reached out to UNHCR, and we talk often about 鈥� daily 鈥� on reports what鈥檚 happening, and I know that the team there on鈥� for UNHCR is extremely frustrated that they can鈥檛 access the people, they can鈥檛 get to the internally-displaced people because of鈥� because of the violence, until there鈥檚 a ceasefire, until there鈥檚 a鈥� they actually can鈥檛 reach them. That鈥檚 a particular part of the UN, that brings aid relief and is able to be present, and they can鈥檛 get there.

Cathy Newman: Is that your understanding? That it was the practicalities of the issue that meant that the troops weren鈥檛 there in sufficient numbers?

William Hague: Of course, the area we鈥檙e talking about, enormous, the numbers of troops very small, the support from neighbouring states 鈥� not there; so all of these problems are present there, and the leadership has to come from within the region to sort this out, but the pressure to do that and, if necessary, the resources to help to do that have to come from the rest of the world.

Cathy Newman: You鈥檝e been to many war zones 鈥� Darfur, Iraq, Afghanistan; I鈥檝e missed many, I鈥檓 sure 鈥� what did you witness there on this particular issue, of rape in the war zone, that really, sort of, inspired you to back this campaign?

Angelina Jolie: For me, this campaign came about with鈥� we came together on a film I鈥檇 worked on that鈥�

Cathy Newman: The Land of Blood and Honey.

Angelina Jolie: 鈥he Land of Blood and Honey 鈥� which came from these years in the field where I鈥檇 continued to meet victims of sexual violence who鈥� you know, had just seen no justice, and had felt isolated and abused, and abuse upon abuse because they had felt ignored. But you start to鈥� I started to lean very much towards the law, and to understand that when people don鈥檛 know their rights and they don鈥檛 know they can fight for it and they don鈥檛 have鈥� any rape, any kind of sexual violence that would happen to anybody in this room, the perpetrator would be arrested, we would see justice. Millions and millions of people around the world don鈥檛 have that. It鈥檚 a shame, and it鈥檚 something that鈥� how dare we not do something? So it was helping to give them a voice, and trying to understand myself what more needs to be done to assist them.

William Hague: And this film is one of the inspirations behind the British Government鈥檚 campaign, you know 鈥� it鈥檚 so good, it鈥檚 so clear, it鈥檚 so horrifying. It brings to life the statistics. But I think what Angelina achieved with the film was really to bring that to life, to鈥� so that it鈥檚 not just something that鈥檚 out of mind and out of sight. It removes anybody鈥檚 excuse for not doing anything.

Angelina Jolie: And, I mean, there鈥檚 so much talk.

Cathy Newman: There鈥檚 a lot of bureaucracy.

Angelina Jolie: There鈥檚 a lot of bureaucracy, and there鈥檚 a lot of talking, and it just鈥� and when we first started to speak about this, and I learned about the initiative, it was鈥� it wasn鈥檛 about, you know, how we can go there together and talk; it was something very practical that had to be done 鈥� it was a鈥� 鈥榯here will be an absolute鈥欌€� you know, 鈥榯here鈥檚 people on the ground, there are things being done, there will be results, it will move forward鈥�.

Cathy Newman: Some people might be a little bit cynical, seeing you sat there next to a major Hollywood star. What do you think Angelina Jolie brings to your campaign?

William Hague: Well, Angelina was instrumental in the campaign, because 鈥� as I mentioned a moment ago 鈥� her film about what happened in Bosnia was certainly, to me, one of the main motivating factors in getting this campaign going; but of course she鈥� Angelina brings her experience as an envoy of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, having visited so many countries, and the ability to mobilise opinion and to attract attention to these things.

Cathy Newman: To get it talked about.

William Hague: And that鈥檚 one of the things that we have to do. This has been a subject that for too long has been not talked about 鈥� it鈥檚 taboo in some countries to talk about it. It鈥檚 not been the main focus of attention, even in countries like our own, in international affairs.

Cathy Newman: And when you hear people鈥檚 stories repeatedly over the years, as you have done 鈥� obviously their world is so far removed from, you know, the world that we all inhabit. Do you鈥� how do you empathise with what you鈥檙e hearing?

Angelina Jolie: How can we live in a world where people are abused in such fashions, where young, you know, girls and boys are being raped so violently?

Cathy Newman: Well, you nod at that 鈥� I mean, you鈥檙e famously, you know, unemotional.

Angelina Jolie: Are you famously unemotional? That鈥檚 so interesting.

William Hague: The Foreign Secretary has to be, yes.

Angelina Jolie: I as鈥� am I famously emotional and you鈥檙e famously unemotional?

William Hague: It鈥檚 quite a combination, isn鈥檛 it?

Cathy Newman: I wasn鈥檛 saying you鈥檙e famously emotional.

Angelina Jolie: That鈥檚鈥�

William Hague: It鈥檚 quite a combination.

Angelina Jolie: That鈥檚 why we鈥檙e a combination.

Cathy Newman: But, I mean, even you have been鈥� 鈥渆ven you鈥�, I say 鈥� OK. You鈥檝e been moved by what you鈥檝e heard.

William Hague: This is one of the worst things happening in the world today, and a world that has mounted campaigns against a slave trade, that is on the edge of agreeing an Arms Trade Treaty ought鈥� is a world which ought to be able to do something about this. So yes, even the unemotional Foreign Secretary feels very, very strongly about this.

Cathy Newman: Do you ever think that what you鈥檙e doing on a humanitarian basis is so much more, sort of, time-consuming and more rewarding, potentially, than what you do in your acting, and鈥�

Angelina Jolie: Oh, of course. Yeah.

Cathy Newman: All the time?

Angelina Jolie: Yeah. Yeah, of course. I mean, I wouldn鈥檛鈥�

Cathy Newman: Does that ever make you think you鈥檒l give up the acting and focus purely on the鈥�

Angelina Jolie: I think I鈥檓 going to have to give up the acting as the kids hit the teenage years anyway, because鈥� you know.

Cathy Newman: Too [unclear].

Angelina Jolie: There鈥檚 going to be too much to manage at home. But鈥�

Cathy Newman: That鈥檚 [unclear].

Angelina Jolie: You know, I鈥� you know, I鈥檝e enjoyed being an actress, and I鈥檓 so grateful for the job, and I鈥檝e had great experiences, and I鈥檝e even been able to tell stories and be a part of stories that mattered. And I鈥檝e also done really just things for fun and, you know, hopefully鈥� but鈥�

Cathy Newman: But you鈥檙e speaking in the past tense there, as if from now on鈥�

Angelina Jolie: I鈥檒l do some films, and I am so fortunate to have the job, you know. It鈥檚 a really鈥� it鈥檚 a very lucky profession to be a part of, and I enjoy it. But if it went away tomorrow, I鈥檇 be very happy to just be home with my children, and I would鈥� you know, I wake up in the morning as a mom, and I turn on the news like everybody else, and I see what鈥檚 happening in the world, and I want to be a part of the world in a positive way.